Most clients are comfortable discussing retirement goals, investment performance or passing wealth to the next generation. But ask them to talk about death and you might find the conversation stalling.
It's not because they don't understand the importance of planning ahead. Most people know they should have a will, keep beneficiary nominations up to date and make their wishes clear. The challenge is that talking about death can mean confronting an uncomfortable reality, so it might be left for another day.
However, delaying the conversation doesn't make the reality disappear. When someone passes away, loved ones can be left navigating financial decisions, paperwork and administration, while also dealing with grief on top of that.
In the Money:Mindshift podcast episode 'How to prepare for death', Dr. Tom explores why conversations about death might be avoided and the impact that could have on the people left behind.
It can be a useful reminder that one of the most valuable things you could do as an adviser isn't just helping clients plan financially, but helping them start conversations that some might prefer to avoid.
Why clients avoid the conversation
In some cultures, death is still a bit of a taboo subject.
Clients might worry that raising the subject could upset family members, appear pessimistic, or force them to confront difficult emotions. Others might assume there's plenty of time to sort these things out later. But avoiding the discussion could create uncertainty later. Family members might be left guessing what their loved one wanted, searching for important information, or making decisions without clear guidance.
And sometimes, these conversations aren't as difficult as people anticipate, the biggest hurdle could simply be getting started.
Your role as an adviser
You don't need to become a grief expert or family mediator.
It could be as simple as creating opportunities for your clients to consider issues they may not have addressed. A trusted adviser is often well-placed to introduce these topics because conversations about the future are already a part of the planning process.
A simple question could be enough to open the door:
- 'If something happened to you tomorrow, would your family know where to find everything?'
- 'Have you discussed your wishes with the people who would be affected?'
- 'Is there someone who would struggle to manage financial matters on your behalf?'
- 'Are there any important decisions your family might have to make without you there?'
These aren't technical questions. They're human ones. And you might find they're the questions that prompt your clients to act.
If you find that your client is struggling to have these discussions with their loved ones, you might want to signpost them to our conversation starters guide. Created in collaboration with Go Fund Yourself, an online personal finance community, it provides easy entry points to some of life's trickier money conversations.
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Get this voodoo topic out in the open.
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I can hear that clock ticking.
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He didn't teach me how to die. He taught me how to live.
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The parents are like, this is all going to be yours one day.
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You're like, no!
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Grief is a buddy that will walk alongside you throughout your life.
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You know what? It's actually really messy down here.
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Welcome to the Money:Mindshift Podcast.
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Your life, your money in that order.
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Hello everyone.
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Welcome to the Money:Mindshift Podcast.
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Your life, your money in that order.
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I'm your host, Dr Tom.
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This is the final episode of Season 2.
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And congratulations. You've made it.
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You clicked on a title that, let's be honest.
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Your instincts probably told you to avoid: death.
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Wow. What a subject.
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You know, I say this often. We live longer, healthier lives.
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And that's a real gift. More time on the planet.
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More time to explore. More time with friends and family.
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But at some point, of course, there is an end point.
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And hopefully, when we reach it, we can look back and say,
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yes, I made the most of the time I had.
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That's what we want this podcast to help you do.
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And every episode is really above that ambition.
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But today, we're focusing on that moment, the moment when our lives end.
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And are asking, like, how can we prepare for this?
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Not only practically, but also emotionally.
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And perhaps as well, you know, how can we weave that preparation
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into our longer, healthier lives rather than leaving it to the very end?
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I'm really happy to have two amazing guests on the show today.
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Asa Nilsson, she's a Swedish death cleaning coach.
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Yes, you heard that right.
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And Kathi Balasek, she's an expert on the emotion of grief.
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You're still here? Well done. You're brave.
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Right. I need you to be present.
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And I need to feel it because I'm about to be dropped into that rabbit hole
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and sit with this topic in the dark for a moment.
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So come with me.
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Right. I'm in.
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And I force myself to think about death.
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I can, you know, hear that clock ticking.
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You know what? As I look around, I see all this stuff.
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I drag down here during season two.
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Here's that head torch.
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Here are the weekend pages from that financial paper I mentioned last time.
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Here are the career crisis prompt cards I used before my chat with Alice
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from the School of Life.
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And here, look, here's that little music player I listened to
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Pharrell Williams on right before I had a go at him for this song, Happy.
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You know what? It's actually really messy down here.
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And that's not how I want to leave this rabbit hole behind before season three starts again.
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So maybe, maybe I used this moment to tidy up a little.
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Can we make a cut here?
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Just give me like five minutes to clean this space.
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I know this isn't really me thinking about death, but somehow it kind of feels like
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preparation in a strange way, kind of clearing the path.
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So can we cut here and bring me back into the shore once I've sorted myself out?
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Yeah, sure, Tom. Take as long as you like.
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I'm back in the show.
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This is the Money:Mindshift podcast, your life, your money in that order.
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And thank you for sticking with me.
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I took a bit longer than I expected to clean up.
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I kept the head torch.
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I've got a feeling I might need it again in season three, but some of the other things I dragged down there in season two.
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Well, they're just clutter now.
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And in a strange way, I think that ties in perfectly with the work of my first guest today.
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Because I'm about to speak to a death cleaning coach, Asa Nilsson.
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She's just outside of Stockholm and she's the person behind More Moss for the People.
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I mean, what a name.
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I'm intrigued already.
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Asa, everyone tells me that I'm quite brave to look at death, but I'm also really looking forward to this conversation.
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Thank you for coming.
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Thank you for having me.
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Asa, for those who don't know what's Swedish death cleaning and also how and why did you become a death cleaner?
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Good question.
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Good place to start.
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Swedish death cleaning.
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It's actually an old term here in Sweden.
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People have been using it for years and the Swedes are pretty practical.
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Have no really issue about talking about death.
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And what we do here is encourage people really to look at their possessions now while alive, so as to not burden your loved ones after you're gone.
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And it's kind of decluttering, but I'm more of a practical emotional level also.
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And how did I get into it?
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You know, you just have some skills.
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Like everybody's got something that they're good at and mine isn't necessarily talking about death, but I don't mind talking about death.
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My skills come in organizing and seeing kind of pattern and design and I have a background in real estate and banking and so forth.
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And so I found in real estate and banking and podcasting.
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So like kind of the work itself, the actual work itself came to me through somebody saying, wow, you know, you're really good at this.
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And I never really thought about it.
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I just thought everybody was kind of okay with organising whatnot.
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And they're like, no, you need to do this for work.
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And that's how it started.
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I mean, after years of doing very black and white work, getting into something, life coaching, I was doing life coaching and kind of going from life coaching into death.
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So it's been very natural.
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It means really natural.
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It's a beautiful transition.
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Okay, great.
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So, I mean, you're giving a hint here that it is about burden reduction, but also it is more than that.
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So it is also about self clarity, I suppose.
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So we will look into both of those aspects, but can we also from your experience, I mean, death is obviously outside of Sweden, at least.
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It's not the sort of subject that we like to talk about a lot.
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And what you suggest is that it is something that we should be thinking about.
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And I'm wondering from your experience, like, what's the risk of not talking about death?
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Well, there's a big risk because there's people out there who don't really care about the mess they leave behind.
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And I do consider it to be a mess.
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And that is actually our logo or slogan for the business because I consider it a responsibility of myself to take care of my health.
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And to not leave it for somebody else to have to tend to.
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So there's the burden.
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There's the actual people who have to come in after the fact where, you know, maybe you don't want to talk about it, but it is something every single person, every one of us, 100% of us were going to be affected by this with our own deaths and those around us.
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And the more we can talk about this and kind of get this topic out in the open and make it more mainstream to be able to say, well, this is definitely going to happen.
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So how can I make it easier for myself now, better for myself now?
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And feeling like kind of like, how can I design my home and my life at this stage versus what it's always been.
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I can have the control and start looking through my belongings and getting my paperwork in order.
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I personally consider it to be a huge responsibility to not make somebody else come in and have to figure out how to close my life out when I'm gone, because this can happen anytime.
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Anything can happen anytime.
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And it is very practical as far as that's concerned.
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I mean, we know it's going to happen in getting the paperwork started, but also going through our homes with our loved ones and for our loved ones.
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It's for us to have peace now, but it's also for the people who have to come in after us to also not have the burden.
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Have you seen, can you give some examples of like what do you have seen, especially, I mean, I guess it's typically the next generation's typically the children who clean after their parents?
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And can you give some examples of like what happened when this wasn't done properly amongst the children who are then cleaning up?
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Well, sure, I think that a lot of people think that their things are so wanted, like my entire house, you know, like the parents are like, this is all going to be yours one day.
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And the kids are like, no, I don't want these things.
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I don't have any room.
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I mean, especially here in Sweden, you know, space is limited.
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And it's very expensive to have apartments and storage units and all these things in parents who have their homes or villas or, you know, holding on to the ancient belongings of the ancestors.
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Especially here in Europe, I find that it's much harder for people to get rid of things.
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And so there's a lot of guilt.
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There's a lot of shame around the families with, okay, fine, you know, here I'm sitting with my grandmother's dining room table.
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Did I really want it?
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Maybe, but you know, would I want something else possibly, but keeping it because it was the right thing to do because my mom said you're taking that table.
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Okay.
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Yes.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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All that debt that comes with holding on to everything at some point, it affects us extremely negatively.
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And we have enough stress in our lives that I believe our home should be a place to come to and having clients that have years of belongings.
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And it's sad.
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I mean, I have this beautiful 95 year old client whom I love his second wife passed away.
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They didn't have any children together.
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Nobody wanted any of their things.
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And he's like, what am I going to do?
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You have to get rid of it.
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You know, it's unfortunate, but we have to donate it out.
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I mean, if it's super nice, highly valuable things, and of course you can have auction houses, you can have people come in and you can sell things.
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But, you know, he was, he was really let down because he thought everybody would want his belongings and nobody did.
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Yeah.
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That's sad because, you know, you also have to coach through that.
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Yes.
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And it's yes, it is a let down, but you know, now, ultimately, we've got to get your home cleaned up for you.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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You chose an interesting word there.
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I want to get into this later that you said debt in context of using belongings.
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Yes.
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So let's unpack that.
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But before we do on your website, I found this guide that helps people organise their life and various affairs before they die.
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And I wanted to pick a few things from that guide if that's okay.
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And it begins with financial things.
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And that's, of course, something that we at Aegon who fund Money:Mindshift, you know, they're lifetime savings providers.
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That's something they would be talking about, you know, have your death beneficiaries named, et cetera.
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But you're going much deeper though.
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So can you elaborate a little on what you're going through when you invite people to think about their financials?
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And also, by the way, I'm intrigued why you chose to begin with the financials.
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Because I think that's the most important thing.
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Most people care the most about their money.
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What's going to happen?
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The workbook, let me just give a little bit of background.
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The workbook is for people, it will come into effect once you pass away.
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It is not necessarily something that anybody needs to be having access to until you're gone.
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But for example, my husband's parents both died in a tragic ferry incident here in Sweden.
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It's called the Estonia.
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And so when they left for their trip, they left on a Sunday and said, we'll be back on Wednesday.
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They never returned.
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So they walked out of their home and never came back home.
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So what happens then?
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What happens when you have to come in after somebody is gone and close out their life?
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How many details we're talking about?
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It is overwhelming.
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And so this workbook that we are now actually, we have launched in the United States.
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That's our primary market for this workbook.
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Financial piece after you get into the, who are you, what's your social security number,
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all the identifiers and who your family is, where do you have your money?
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Where do you have your bank accounts?
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Where do you have savings account checking accounts?
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Are people listed as payable on death?
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Because have you thought through anything because the logistical nightmare for the people that
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have to come in after the fact when everything freezes, right?
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I really don't believe people understand it.
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And I want to do whatever I can to at least the tap, tap, tap on people's shoulders to
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say, hey, listen, I'm not an attorney.
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I'm not a financial adviser, but I would highly recommend if you do not know what this book
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is asking you, take it to the bank and ask them, hey, do I have this?
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Is this something?
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Do I have like anybody, like a joint tenancy, or right of survivorship?
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Do I have these types of things automatically on my account?
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Who gets my money when I die?
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Does it freeze?
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The financial piece is enormous.
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And I have had clients that I have helped after their spouses have passed away.
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You know, the husband, this is just a generalisation.
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I'm not saying this isn't every fact, but the husband, I'm going to take care of the financials.
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My wife doesn't need to know about any of this.
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I'm the man of the house.
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That is the hugest disservice anybody can ever do to a spouse when that person then goes
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away.
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And the wife's like, I don't even know how, I don't even know where our bills are.
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I don't know what bills we have.
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I'm not even on the checking account, right?
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So I have seen, I have witnessed through all of this through the years of working with
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the banking and working with clients that if we can work through documenting where we have
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our life and our bills, our loans, mortgages, credit cards, bank cards, I mean, all this,
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just the digital assets alone.
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It is so much.
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It is so much work for us.
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It is our life.
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Imagine what it's like for somebody else.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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They've got to get on top of this first.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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Oh my gosh.
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Yeah.
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So this workbook is it's to help.
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It's a guide to help people get their life in paper so that they can give this to their
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attorney or to their executor to say, Hey, listen, when I'm gone, you come and get this
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booklet and this is going to help you.
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It's going to help you on your way.
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Yeah.
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No, that's massive.
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And I'm pretty sure the same applies to the UK and equivalents and many other countries
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as well.
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I mentioned it, by the way, you said digital assets.
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And that was another thing that I came across in the workbook that I hadn't even contemplated,
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but it contains things like all the subscriptions and mail accounts and all these things that
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you don't think about that of course, like, yes, you've got to close them.
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Somebody has to close them.
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Yeah.
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And you know, this is also how this thing with debt, the debt of clutter, how it connects
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to Swedish death cleaning is there's money attached to everything.
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You have all these automatic debits.
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You have these things that are coming out of your account every month.
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They don't know you're gone.
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They have no idea you get like, I mean, like now the family has to go back and contact
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all these people to say, here's the just certificate.
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This person passed away.
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Can you wave all the fees?
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Can you do all this?
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It is the expense.
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The digital assets that piece, I read something which was so alarming.
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And it was after COVID that the average person, if you can imagine, has over 180 passwords
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that they are maintaining between their personal life and their business life.
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And there are services, thankfully, that you can apply for or to have as password keepers
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and all this stuff and to maintain just, I also read something I hadn't even heard about
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this about executors.
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You know, when you have an executor on in a state, at least in the US, you can also now
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have something called a digital executor where there's a person who only takes care of your
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digital life.
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Could you imagine that this is even necessary?
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But it is.
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I mean, think it's just social media, all your emails, banking information, all of it.
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Yeah, it's a lot.
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It's a lot of information and, you know, also for privacy and secrecy and for people who
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steal identities.
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I mean, this is the debt, right?
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So imagine we don't do anything about this.
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How do you think it's going to happen?
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What's going to happen down the road?
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So this is a piece of Swedish death cleaning.
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The paperwork, the organising and getting your ducks in a row, it feels terrific to
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I mean, it's it is a huge burden off your shoulders to know, okay, and put it as a working document.
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Obviously it changes all the time based on your life.
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That links a little bit.
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It is burden reduction, but it is also a mental exercise.
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You're going through where you gain a lot of clarity and as you say, weight off your
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shoulder.
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Yeah.
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Also in the last section of this workbook, there are things that's called personal matters
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and there you invite people to write down and I quote here, untold stories you would
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like to share.
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Then it seems like anyone you'd like to say, thank you to apologies you've never quite
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made.
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Can you elaborate a little on these last items on the list?
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And I'm wondering if there's any guidance on how people should approach these things.
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It's so important.
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And that's interesting that you bring that part up because I get more feedback on the
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last pages.
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And that's the legacy, right?
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This is the legacy that people think, okay, if I leave all my belongings to my kids,
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they're going to be over joyous.
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No, what's more likely is you are leaving your legacy every single day on how you are
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as a human being and how you treat other people.
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And everyone's watching.
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We all know this.
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So these questions at the end are, there's so much silence.
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There's so much, I don't want to talk to my kids about this because it's really hard
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and I don't really want to burden them with these concerns of mine or that maybe I didn't
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feel like I was such a great parent or whatever.
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I mean, whatever the person's story is, it's so beautiful and it is so private and meaningful.
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And that I believe is a huge piece of this also is having the conversations and daring
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to have the conversations with the people that we love the most and to get it off of
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our hearts to allow people to give the permission to ourselves to share our hearts.
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And if it's not possible to do it now, to put it in writing, let somebody read it later
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because that will mean the world to somebody one day.
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So the final exhale, the final part of that, how do you want your funeral to look or do
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you want a funeral?
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Do you want whatever your wishes are?
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It's like the wrapping, like the final culmination of our life and if we can do it with peace
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in our heart and taking the time to actually give ourselves the respect that we so deserve,
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especially at the end to be able to share that with the people who maybe never got to
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hear it from you, even if it's in writing or what have you.
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But I would highly recommend that if you start anywhere other than the financials in this
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book, do that part next?
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Is the legacy?
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What do you want people to remember or what do you need others to know that maybe you
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just couldn't get off your heart?
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And I personally believe this is also why I love doing the work because I love a beautiful
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conversation with people because they have an easier time sharing it with me because
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I'm not their family.
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But they get it out and that's important.
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And that gets them started to be able to have the conversation with someone and then maybe
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they can bring it on to their child.
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And of course, I would always encourage that they would write it down if they can or even
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record it in a telephone to share as a message at a funeral or what have you.
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And answer all this, totally see why you ought to be doing this, see all the consequences
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of what happens, what might happen if you don't do it.
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The question I have is, is this just for in the final stage of your life or is there
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a way of like how to think about this, how to do this throughout your life or at any
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stage in your life?
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Yes.
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Yes, of course.
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I mean, I've had clients of all ages, but death cleaning isn't only after somebody's
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gone or preparing for death.
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This is a process you always will do this.
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This is an ongoing process.
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And I have friends who are 24 years old that we talk about this with, like, you know, just
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think about this.
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I have nieces and nephews start considering for your own life.
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I noticed that the younger generations, they don't want to have a bunch of things.
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They don't have a lot of belongings, but they still have things that matter.
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I mean, they still have a pretty big footprint where they have their lives.
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So getting these things documented because we know well enough, it does not matter what
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age you are, anything can happen at any time.
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But as far as doing death cleaning in your home, it's being conscious, like being conscientious
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of what it is that you have.
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And I believe that we are becoming more and more conscientious in our own lives and in
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our own world to eliminate things that we really no longer want, but giving them in a
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way that is respectful also to the earth and to maybe others that need it more than we
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do.
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I see you were speaking that I was wondering actually be conscious of what you have.
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I was wondering, actually, if I, or in my household, if we apply Swedish death cleaning
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unbeknownst for a while already in the sense that, you know, once a year when we go out
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for our like big summer holiday, what we do is we let the flat out or we do home swaps
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with other families.
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And what we do prior is we make like space for the others that are coming into our house
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and then we go through stuff and then we go, oh, we don't need this anymore.
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You know, that can go to charity or that can go to friends or that can.
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And that in a way, I wonder, is that reducing that debt of clutter and, you know, not accruing
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stuff and being conscious of what you have and what you don't have?
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Is that a practical way of doing it?
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Anything you do in your home and, you know, some people say, I'm gutting my home every
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year.
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Well, that's okay.
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You do, you do whatever you want to do, but then you go out to Target and you spend thousands
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of thousands of dollars and you fill it up again for the next year.
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That's not really the premise.
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I mean, there are other decluttering programs.
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There's lots of people that tell you just to kind of, this isn't like make it pretty.
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This isn't like getting nice drawers in place.
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This isn't what Swedish death cleaning is.
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This is looking at what you have in your home and does this make sense for me now?
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And if it doesn't make sense for me now, for example, I'm 58 years old.
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Do I need things from when I was 20 years old anymore?
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I don't need the clothing anymore.
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I don't need the college sweatshirts.
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Maybe keep one.
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I don't need five, you know, there's different things that I want to design a life for the
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life that I want today, not necessarily what I had before.
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And that's how this becomes a more conscious effort in really looking around like, you
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know, well, I know that I want my sister to get that clock.
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So maybe I can ask my sister, do you want the clock now?
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I would love for you to enjoy it today.
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I guess I could put a sticker on the back that says Maria on it, but do you just want
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it now?
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I would love to have it in your home and come to your home and see it.
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So anything you can do to lighten your own load, because, you know, we have so many things
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to constantly tend to.
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And I want my home to be the place that I come to get away from everything and to feel rest
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in peace.
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And that's up to me how I create that.
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And many people do not feel that.
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They do not have a place to come rest because the mess outside has come inside and then
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they don't tie it together to their body, mind and soul where everything I have around
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me, it's just more stuff.
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And I can't even hear myself think anymore.
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I can't feel myself think anymore.
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And that was a big part of my life where I realised something.
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No, I need to simplify.
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And there's a woman called Marie Forleo, simplify to amplify.
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And that's one of her quotes.
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And that is, I do better when I have less around me.
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I can help people get less around them as well, but they have to understand, especially if
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somebody's gone, if there is true death cleaning, then it becomes very difficult and different
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for people to have to release things because they're never going to get it back.
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But that's also a process and a journey where if people are living with others now, that
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they can do this together today and just start talking about it instead of keeping the silence
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going, right?
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How can we discuss?
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Yeah, I love that.
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And it shows that clutter, it isn't just stuff that is the emotional side that comes with
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it.
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This is wonderful.
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Thank you so much, Asa, for sharing your insights and this more about this Swedish tradition,
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which we can all benefit from.
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Where can people get in touch with you or find out more about you?
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Yes, I have a website.
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We have several websites, but the one that I typically tell people to go to is more moss
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to thepeople.com.
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I love the moss, the Swedish moss, the Swedish forest.
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That's sweet and evolving.
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Yes.
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But that's a good place to find us to get started.
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Fantastic.
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Love it.
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More moss, less mess.
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Exactly.
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Fantastic.
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Thank you so much.
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This is wonderful.
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Thank you.
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Thank you so much, Tom.
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I appreciate it.
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Wow.
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As usual, so many things to take away here.
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Stay tuned.
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I'd share my main takeaways from this conversation with Asa.
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At the end, we're continuing now our second interview here on the Money:Mindshift podcast,
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your life, your money in that order.
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And this time we are heading all the way to North California, east of San Francisco to
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a place called Chico.
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And we speak to Kathi Balasek, who's the founder of Grief Ready Communication.
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Kathy helps people build the communication skills they need to support through periods
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of loss, transition and those big life altering moments.
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And with her, I want to explore some of the taboos around speaking about death loss and
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all those things and how we can have these conversations, nevertheless.
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Kathi, thank you so much for joining our podcast.
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How are you?
450
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I'm great.
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So grateful for the invite.
452
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Of course, I was really keen to speak to you.
453
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I know you went from a happy wife and mother to widow and caregiver in a very short period.
454
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And I want to come to grief and the emotion of grief in a bit, but can you share your
455
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story with us?
456
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Absolutely.
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As you said, I was a young wife, mother, and my husband was diagnosed with brain cancer
458
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when we were in our 30s.
459
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And he fought it for five years.
460
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,000
And we had everything.
461
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,000
We had five beautiful children and jobs.
462
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:29,000
We loved money in the bank, home, and it shaped everything moving forward.
463
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:38,000
And to see what death and loss can do to a family, to your money, to how you think about
464
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:47,000
your future is a lesson that at some point I knew I wanted to pay it forward because John,
465
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:48,000
he didn't teach me how to die.
466
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He taught me how to live.
467
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Wow.
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00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,000
And no, that's why we're here.
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00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:53,000
Yeah.
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00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:54,000
Thank you for sharing that story.
471
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:59,000
I mean, I bet even after all those years, it is still not easy to describe.
472
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,000
And it leads me to this bigger question.
473
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:08,000
What is grief and perhaps more constructively put, what is the purpose of this emotion of
474
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:09,000
grief?
475
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:18,000
I think the purpose of the emotional side of grief is that you have to go through it.
476
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,000
You have to walk alongside it.
477
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,000
You have to get the help to move forward.
478
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:29,000
And in a society that doesn't want to talk about it, that just wants to fix it and have
479
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:37,000
it be over, you know, grief is a buddy that will walk alongside you throughout your life.
480
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,000
And it shapes and morphs and I wear it differently.
481
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,000
You know, it's been 20 years since my husband died.
482
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:51,000
And yet I talk to women, miss him every day, even though I've moved forward in life,
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00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,000
in relationships, my kids are grown.
484
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,000
It's a constant presence.
485
00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:02,000
And I think the emotional side of grief in our world, we just think it's going to go
486
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,000
away or it's going to go in phases.
487
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:09,000
And there's just a lot of myths out there that can help people because grief is a lonely
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00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,000
business.
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00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,000
You know, I make people uncomfortable when they hear my story.
490
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:21,000
And what if we lived in a world where all of these stories of people's lives and losses
491
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,000
were invited to the party?
492
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:29,000
You know, I recently met somebody who said that they were an only child in a conversation
493
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,000
when I knew they'd lost a brother.
494
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,000
And I thought, wow, you know, it's always their brother.
495
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,000
I'd love to hear about their brother.
496
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:38,000
They're not an only child.
497
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:39,000
Yeah.
498
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:45,000
I mentioned that different phases, but I guess I'm interested, especially in this first
499
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,000
phase just now.
500
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,000
And I heard you calling this term grief fog.
501
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:52,000
What is that?
502
00:28:52,000 --> 00:29:00,000
So what happens in loss is first of all, you know, back to the phases, there's no steady
503
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,000
linear phases of grief.
504
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,000
It's all over the board.
505
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:11,000
But initially, and really it can last over two years, typically it's a grief fog or brain
506
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,000
fog is the term.
507
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:20,000
And it is cognitive issues when grief affects the brain.
508
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,000
You forget things.
509
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,000
You're completely overloaded and overwhelmed.
510
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:30,000
You can't put pieces together or in order.
511
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:38,000
And so all of the tasks that have to be done that first year, the logistics of the paperwork
512
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:46,000
and every decision you have to make while you're in grief fog is incredibly debilitating.
513
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,000
And you think you're losing your mind.
514
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:52,000
And you think, am I the only one who is experiencing this?
515
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:59,000
And yet is such a key over missed attribute of loss.
516
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,000
People don't think about it.
517
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:06,000
They don't think about, you know, well, I forgot to do this or I lost my keys.
518
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:13,000
And so professionals or other people have these higher expectations of your performance within
519
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,000
that first and second year of loss.
520
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:23,000
And it made me feel personally ashamed, embarrassed.
521
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,000
I didn't know if I was losing it.
522
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:31,000
I don't even know the questions to ask a professional if I'm working with somebody
523
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:37,000
or needing advice on financial decisions or things like that.
524
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:42,000
And I think people don't understand that it's the loss and the sadness.
525
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:49,000
But then the fog is like driving through a storm with the windshield wipers not working
526
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,000
and your car is completely fogged over.
527
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,000
And you're expected to move forward.
528
00:30:55,000 --> 00:31:01,000
And in my particular loss of widowhood, I don't even know what forward looks like.
529
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:02,000
Hmm.
530
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:07,000
I want to pick up the, you mentioned the professionals and the help that you may seek.
531
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:12,000
And I want to pick this up separately, but just to pick this up with the car metaphor.
532
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,000
And you know, this episode is called how to prepare for death.
533
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:20,000
And I'm wondering, is there anything that can be the way you describe this, this car
534
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:24,000
situation, that sounds as though nothing can be done to prepare it.
535
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,000
And is there something that can be done to prepare?
536
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:31,000
I think there's several things that can be done to prepare.
537
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,000
Number one, I'm a communication expert.
538
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,000
I teach people how to talk about hard things.
539
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:43,000
And these conversations with your family and the people you care about and the people that
540
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:50,000
you have to protect, these things need to start early and often of, you know, when I
541
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:58,000
die, I want this when I am diagnosed with an illness, I want this to happen.
542
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,000
Because it's not an if anymore.
543
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,000
No, it is a when.
544
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:08,000
And in a death avoidance society, we don't want to talk about it.
545
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,000
And we were never taught the language of loss.
546
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,000
So we're not fluent in it.
547
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:20,000
And to bring up these conversations, even like early in a marriage, you know, talking
548
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:28,000
about life insurance, yes, that's the protection, but that's the conversation about the winds.
549
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,000
When this happens, I want this.
550
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:38,000
And getting more comfortable with these conversations is the first thing.
551
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:42,000
Having them is the second where it's just a natural thing.
552
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:50,000
We get comfortable and it's such an intimacy and vulnerability that can be built in a relationship,
553
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:54,000
whether it's a spouse, whether it's a child, et cetera.
554
00:32:54,000 --> 00:33:01,000
And third, really understanding grief and loss, you know, when there's a change, there's
555
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:05,000
usually a detachment, whether it's good or bad change, it's a letting go.
556
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,000
Then there's loss.
557
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,000
Then there's grief.
558
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:16,000
And grief is something that there's a lot of myths and there's some truths.
559
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:22,000
And a big part of my role is to modernise what we understand about grief and loss, because
560
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,000
it's not just death.
561
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:30,000
I mean, think about it when you have a parent that gets diagnosed or a cancer diagnosis,
562
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:36,000
you know, you sort of lose them twice because you have all of this stress of worried about
563
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,000
the loss and then when they actually die.
564
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:48,000
And I think people and professionals can have a better way of showing up for the people
565
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,000
in their darkest hours.
566
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:58,000
And what is it everybody should know about communicating with someone who's grieving?
567
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:04,000
I think a couple of things I'll mention here is whether you are a person and friend or
568
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:10,000
whether you are a professional, you know, it's hard to separate this out because grief
569
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,000
happens to everybody.
570
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:19,000
But when it's a professional, what I really want them to know is that this is an opportunity
571
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:24,000
to deepen a relationship, deepen trust.
572
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,000
It almost solidifies it.
573
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:30,000
I mean, when you work with somebody, you can't get half of the story.
574
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:35,000
You know, we all like to think about the weddings and the babies and buying a home and
575
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,000
all of those wonderful things.
576
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:46,000
But the reality is we need to be heard and understood when a parent is experiencing dementia,
577
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:54,000
when a child has special needs, when we are separating and have an impending divorce.
578
00:34:54,000 --> 00:35:00,000
When people tell another person and another professional, we want you to know.
579
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,000
We wouldn't have said it.
580
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:08,000
And so if you're a professional, that is like a divine opportunity to acknowledge their
581
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:13,000
loss, ask permission if they'd like to talk about it.
582
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,000
You are there to listen and learn.
583
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:23,000
You know, you think about in your daily life, how many times people share that they're going
584
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:29,000
through something or they're headed to somebody's funeral or somebody got a diagnosis or they're
585
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:35,000
worried about a young couple that is experiencing infertility.
586
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,000
They're telling you for a reason.
587
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:49,000
So my role is to help these conversation starters and how to do that where you deepen and almost
588
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,000
solidify the trust.
589
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:52,000
Yeah.
590
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,000
And then you mentioned before, we live in a death-avoidant culture.
591
00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:00,000
And you also mentioned we should cultivate speaking about this more frequently and in
592
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,000
a more sort of healthy way.
593
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:03,000
How could one do this?
594
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:04,000
I'm very practical level.
595
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,000
Now, picture, I don't know, husband and wife, perhaps friends.
596
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,000
What should one do as a first step to get started?
597
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:15,000
Well, I'm a fan of direct conversation.
598
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:19,000
You know, I want to talk about what happens when we die.
599
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:25,000
I want to eventually discuss what we want for our children, for our legacy.
600
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,000
Everyone would be a good time to talk about that.
601
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,000
I mean, nobody likes a blind side, right?
602
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:32,000
Yeah.
603
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,000
And so I think it's direct.
604
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:38,000
I think it's spaced out.
605
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,000
Like I suggest 10 date night conversations.
606
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:42,000
Right.
607
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:43,000
Okay.
608
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:50,000
And pick one, the first night, schedule it, go somewhere outside of your home where you
609
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:54,000
don't have any interruptions.
610
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:55,000
And it's a discussion.
611
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,000
It's not decisions.
612
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,000
It's ideas and opening up choices.
613
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:04,000
And it's a conversational type of instance.
614
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:12,000
But be very specific of at the end of this conversation, what do we want out of it?
615
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:18,000
We want a clear decision if I die first, what happens?
616
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:22,000
We want a clear decision on maybe another conversations.
617
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:27,000
What do we want for our children if we die before they're raised?
618
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:31,000
You know, you have to talk about these things.
619
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:37,000
If I were to get diagnosed with a disease tomorrow, I would want my partner and my children to
620
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,000
know exactly what to do.
621
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:47,000
I mean, my kids know what type of service I want, what I want at end of life, the songs
622
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:51,000
I want to be played, how I want it to be a big party.
623
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:57,000
You know, they know because we've planned it, we've discussed it, we're willing to
624
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,000
table it when it becomes too sensitive.
625
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,000
Yeah, fantastic.
626
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,000
Wow, that is very concrete.
627
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:09,000
I can see this even work, even though it is such a tough nut to crack, but I can see how
628
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:14,000
with that sort of pragmatic direct approach, as you describe it, how that can really, yeah,
629
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,000
pave the way for that type of discussion.
630
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,000
And obviously the benefits of this are very obvious.
631
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,000
Kathy, thank you so much for your time.
632
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,000
People wanted to find out more about you, where should they go?
633
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:32,000
They should go to my website and it's kathibalasek.com and they can see what I do, get a hold of
634
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:38,000
me because I love to help people start these conversations.
635
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:43,000
I mean, this truly is my love letter to the world because it's skills that every person
636
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,000
can benefit from.
637
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,000
So I would love to meet anyone who's open to this.
638
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:49,000
That is an amazing opportunity.
639
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,000
Thank you so much for spreading the word and joining us.
640
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,000
That has been fantastic.
641
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:54,000
Thank you so much.
642
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:55,000
Thank you.
643
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:56,000
I appreciate it.
644
00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:01,000
Thank you.
645
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,000
This was a tough subject, wasn't it?
646
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,000
And well done for making it all the way here.
647
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:11,000
But you know also, even though it was tough, I actually found something really life affirming
648
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:12,000
in it as well.
649
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:17,000
When we think about preparing for death, we usually focus on the basics, right?
650
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:22,000
Have we got a power of attorney, someone we trust to make decisions for us if we can't?
651
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,000
Have we got a will?
652
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:29,000
Have we made our death beneficiary nominations, you know, saying who should receive what?
653
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:30,000
Have we done those?
654
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:36,000
They matter and Kathi, she reminded us how you could start such a conversation.
655
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:43,000
And us as approach also invites us at any point in life to look at what we own and then ask,
656
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:44,000
is this still a part of who I am?
657
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:48,000
Does it support the life I want now and the one I want next?
658
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,000
Would I choose this again?
659
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,000
And if the answer is no, well, then maybe it's time to let go.
660
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:58,000
Just like I did down in the rabbit hole deciding what I need for season three and what is simply
661
00:39:58,000 --> 00:39:59,000
clutter, right?
662
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,000
The head torch stays the rest, not so much.
663
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:07,000
And this links directly to our mission here, helping you live the life you want with the
664
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,000
resources that you have.
665
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:15,000
We believe that long lives, they require sustainable mental energy and clutter isn't
666
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:16,000
neutral.
667
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:21,000
It signals unfinished decisions, ties you to the past, quietly eats up that cognitive
668
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:26,000
bandwidth and clearing it to create space for better choices, more intentional living.
669
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,000
That was really such a big theme of season two, wasn't it?
670
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,000
This intentional decision making.
671
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,000
Now this was the last episode of season two.
672
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,000
We're already planning season three.
673
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:43,000
Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss us when we return a huge thank you to the whole
674
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:44,000
team behind this podcast.
675
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:49,000
You hear my voice, but you know, the producers, sound engineers, marketers, designers, legal
676
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:53,000
and compliance minds, so many people, you know who you are.
677
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:54,000
Thank you.
678
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:59,000
But of course, most of all, thank you for listening, commenting, sharing, recommending
679
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:00,000
us.
680
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:01,000
Feel free to connect with me.
681
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,000
LinkedIn is best for now.
682
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:04,000
This is the Money:Mindshift podcast.
683
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:11,000
For life, your money, in that order, I'm your host, Dr Tom, and I'll see you around.
684
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,000
Thanks for listening to the Money:Mindshift podcast.
685
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:19,000
If you enjoyed the show, don't forget to like and follow, leave a review, or share it with
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Three ways to make the conversation easier
Focus on loved ones, not death
Some clients might disengage when a conversation is centred on their mortality. They might be more receptive when the discussion is framed around helping those they leave behind.
Rather than asking, 'what happens when you die?', consider asking, 'what would help your loved ones the most if you weren't here?' The conversation then becomes less about the client, and more about reducing stress for the people they care about.
Start small
Not everything needs to be sorted out in a single meeting.
A productive first step might be to simply encourage them to note down their main accounts, review their beneficiary nominations, or have a chat with their partner or loved ones. Breaking the topic into smaller, manageable actions could make it feel a bit less overwhelming.
Look beyond financial assets
One of the themes explored in 'How to prepare for death' is that legacy isn't just about money.
Families often need practical information just as much as financial assets. Important documents, digital accounts, subscriptions, insurance policies and contact details can become tricky to locate if nobody knows they exist.
Åsa Nilsson, a Swedish Death Cleaning coach, explained that preparing for death isn't simply about passing on wealth. It's also about making life easier for those who may one day need to manage our affairs. That could mean organising paperwork, documenting online accounts, or simply making sure loved ones know where information is stored, no matter what age we are or what stage we're at in life.
She said: 'I personally consider it to be a huge responsibility to not make somebody else come in and have to figure out how to close my life out when I'm gone, because this can happen anytime.'
Helping clients think broadly about the information their loved ones may need could add a lot of value.
A conversation worth having
The best time to discuss death isn't usually when families are dealing with its immediate aftermath.
By then, loved ones may be dealing with grief while also trying to navigate practical and financial responsibilities. Decisions that might have been straightforward months or years earlier can feel a lot more difficult.
In 'How to prepare for death', grief communication expert Kathi Balasek discusses the concept of 'grief fog', a period where bereaved people may struggle to process information, make decisions or manage practical tasks. It's a reminder that preparation isn't just about protecting assets; it's about reducing the burden on loved ones during an already difficult time.
That's why preparing for death might not be about death at all, and more about trying to create clarity, reduce uncertainty and make life a bit easier for those we leave behind.
For advisers, helping clients take that step and start those conversations could be one of the most meaningful forms of planning support you could provide.
Want to explore this topic further?
You can tune into the full conversation between Dr. Thomas Mathar, Kathi Balasek and Åsa Nilsson on the Money:Mindshift podcast episode 'How to prepare for death'.
Available now on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
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